Questions: Why market as a truck? Does Jeff B know something about the future of the tax rebate?

[The Dude]

As do standard deductions and itemized deductions.
it sounds like you don’t take any deductions to help out the economy.

the government does not increase anyone else’s taxes to make up for others credits. So no, the general taxpayer experiences no difference.

i would rather not give the government an extra nickel to waste like they do.

if you want to then bless you. I will keep my money. Thanks

Exactly. Well done Sir. Most people have blinders of ALL the things the government pays for. Ag and Big Oil have known this for years. Which is why Im going electric.

 

[P99Guy]

You won’t be disappointed in electric.
i have 3. Took tax credits on all of them. 😎

 

[CosmicSlate]

It takes money away from tax rolls, which means that money has to come from somewhere else, i.e. the general taxpayer.

The general taxpayer pays for all kinds of things they might not support if asked directly, "Do you want your tax money used to pay for this [fill in the blank]" and the US government has been subsidizing all kinds of things for the perceived greater good for generations. A few that come to mind are:

+ Agricultural subsidies which have been part of American policy since the Great Depression. These subsidies take various forms, including direct payments to farmers and price supports. Ever wonder why corn is in everything? Agricultural subsidies plays a major role.

+ Oil/Gas/Coal (dirty energy sources, basically). The US government has provided various subsidies to the fossil fuel industry for many years through tax breaks, research and development funding, and infrastructure support. Why is gas so cheap in the US compared to other parts of the world? Amongst other things, subsidies play a role.

+ Tax breaks for the military and for military contractors. This one is extensive and has a long history in the US. And it takes money out of the general taxpayers' hands and puts it directly into the pockets of people many of us would never support if we had a voice in the matter.

+ And finally, Elon Musk, the world's biggest welfare queen when it comes to US reallocation of resources and taking from the US government and general taxpayers to fund his private projects (some of which have been common-good initiatives, but many which have only served to further enrich him at our expense).

I agree with another post here: it's not fair to blame the EV tax credit for "taking money from the general taxpayer." It's far more complicated than that and it makes it seem as if EVs are some kind of outlier or deserve special scrutiny. Perhaps a reevaluation of the gathering of taxes and the paying of services across the US is in order, but isolating the EV tax credit for criticism is grossly oversimplified and unfair. .

 

[E90400K]

I priced a 2025 Maverick yesterday. An XL with AWD and the 4K tow package a spray-in bedliner is $30,000. If the Slate is going to be $26,000 with just a 150-mile range and 30-minute recovery to 80% (120 miles), it's not going to complete well with the 4-door, much better appointed Maverick.

 

[MiketheCarGeek]

Personally, I don't think Bezos even remembers half the companies he is funding. 🤑
Have you seen his Yacht (with sales) and the "Support Ship" (with helicopter pad).

But seriously...

• America loves Pickups (that can also be an SUV) more than Cars/Hatchbacks.
• Pickups (and Jeeps) are highly accessorized vehicles. Automakers and Amazon make a killing selling bed accessories and truck nuts.
• Fleets could be interested in a truck like Slate. They want to sell it to Retail customers, but if sales are slow - Fleet Buyers have been willing to look at the lower lifetime operating costs of an EV.

 

[E90400K]

The general taxpayer pays for all kinds of things they might not support if asked directly, "Do you want your tax money used to pay for this [fill in the blank]" and the US government has been subsidizing all kinds of things for the perceived greater good for generations. A few that come to mind are:

+ Oil/Gas/Coal (dirty energy sources, basically). The US government has provided various subsidies to the fossil fuel industry for many years through tax breaks, research and development funding, and infrastructure support. Why is gas so cheap in the US compared to other parts of the world? Amongst other things, subsidies play a role.

I agree with another post here: it's not fair to blame the EV tax credit for "taking money from the general taxpayer." It's far more complicated than that and it makes it seem as if EVs are some kind of outlier or deserve special scrutiny. Perhaps a reevaluation of the gathering of taxes and the paying of services across the US is in order, but isolating the EV tax credit for criticism is grossly oversimplified and unfair. .

So, just a few comments. US gasoline price compared to other countries is a factor of fuel taxes, not subsidies. Take the Internet's unsubstantiated published amout of $20B in fossil fuel subsidies and divide it by the 139B gallons of gasoline annually consumed in the US and the per-gallon subsidy is just $0.14 (14-cents) per gallon.

Now for some substantiated subsidy numbers: below are the subsidy data reported by the US Government Energy Information Agency (EIA) for natural gas and liquid petroleum energy, which show only $2.2B in subsidies.

The next chart shows $15B in subsidies for renewables (i.e. strictly electricity generation).

Not shown here is the subsidies for coal, which is just $300M. Coal mostly is used for electricity generation. Of the $2.2B in natural gas and liquid petroleum energy, some 40% of natural gas is used for electricity generation, the rest for home heating and industrial production. So, of the $2.2B, some $1B goes into gasoline production, which makes gasoline subsidies well under 1-cent per gallon.

So, looking at gasoline subsidies for an individual who buys say, 500 gallons of gasoline per year, he gets $5 in subsidies, as compared the individual who gets a one-time $7,500 tax EV subsidy. I think that is what most US tax payers object to, that the EV tax rebate is a targeted individual subsidy rather than industry-level tax policy.

Just wanted to provide alternate data to internet hype.

 

[CosmicSlate]

So, just a few comments. US gasoline price compared to other countries is a factor of fuel taxes, not subsidies. Take the Internet's unsubstantiated published amout of $20B in fossil fuel subsidies and divide it by the 139B gallons of gasoline annually consumed in the US and the per-gallon subsidy is just $0.14 (14-cents) per gallon.

Now for some substantiated subsidy numbers: below are the subsidy data reported by the US Government Energy Information Agency (EIA) for natural gas and liquid petroleum energy, which show only $2.2B in subsidies.

The next chart shows $15B in subsidies for renewables (i.e. strictly electricity generation).

Not shown here is the subsidies for coal, which is just $300M. Coal mostly is used for electricity generation. Of the $2.2B in natural gas and liquid petroleum energy, some 40% of natural gas is used for electricity generation, the rest for home heating and industrial production. So, of the $2.2B, some $1B goes into gasoline production, which makes gasoline subsidies well under 1-cent per gallon.

So, looking at gasoline subsidies for an individual who buys say, 500 gallons of gasoline per year, he gets $5 in subsidies, as compared the individual who gets a one-time $7,500 tax EV subsidy. I think that is what most US tax payers object to, that the EV tax rebate is a targeted individual subsidy rather than industry-level tax policy.

Just wanted to provide alternate data to internet hype.

I appreciate the data and explanation, and you are right to point out that the one-time $7500 tax credit feels different on an individual level, but I think it's disingenuous to compare it to the vast, long-standing, and deeply embedded subsidies the US government has historically and currently provides to the fossil fuel industry.

These fossil fuel subsidies, through tax breaks, infrastructure support, and other mechanisms (like pipeline infrastructure development and favorable regulations) over decades, have amounted to trillions of dollars, effectively lowering their cost of production and consumption on a massive scale and for a much longer duration than the EV credit, which, while helpful to the individual EV buyer, is a relatively small and targeted incentive.

The US government has collectively reduce the operational costs and market risks for the fossil fuel industry over decades on a scale dwarfing the temporary and targeted EV tax credit.

I am not trying to create, support, or advance internet hype, I just find it difficult to stand by while people attack the EV tax credit in a way that creates a false equivalence to the support the US fossil fuel industry has received for generations.

 

[P99Guy]

So, just a few comments. US gasoline price compared to other countries is a factor of fuel taxes, not subsidies. Take the Internet's unsubstantiated published amout of $20B in fossil fuel subsidies and divide it by the 139B gallons of gasoline annually consumed in the US and the per-gallon subsidy is just $0.14 (14-cents) per gallon.

Now for some substantiated subsidy numbers: below are the subsidy data reported by the US Government Energy Information Agency (EIA) for natural gas and liquid petroleum energy, which show only $2.2B in subsidies.

The next chart shows $15B in subsidies for renewables (i.e. strictly electricity generation).

Not shown here is the subsidies for coal, which is just $300M. Coal mostly is used for electricity generation. Of the $2.2B in natural gas and liquid petroleum energy, some 40% of natural gas is used for electricity generation, the rest for home heating and industrial production. So, of the $2.2B, some $1B goes into gasoline production, which makes gasoline subsidies well under 1-cent per gallon.

So, looking at gasoline subsidies for an individual who buys say, 500 gallons of gasoline per year, he gets $5 in subsidies, as compared the individual who gets a one-time $7,500 tax EV subsidy. I think that is what most US tax payers object to, that the EV tax rebate is a targeted individual subsidy rather than industry-level tax policy.

Just wanted to provide alternate data to internet hype.

I appreciate the data and explanation, and you are right to point out that the one-time $7500 tax credit feels different on an individual level, but I think it's disingenuous to compare it to the vast, long-standing, and deeply embedded subsidies the US government has historically and currently provides to the fossil fuel industry.

These fossil fuel subsidies, through tax breaks, infrastructure support, and other mechanisms (like pipeline infrastructure development and favorable regulations) over decades, have amounted to trillions of dollars, effectively lowering their cost of production and consumption on a massive scale and for a much longer duration than the EV credit, which, while helpful to the individual EV buyer, is a relatively small and targeted incentive.

The US government has collectively reduce the operational costs and market risks for the fossil fuel industry over decades on a scale dwarfing the temporary and targeted EV tax credit.

I am not trying to create, support, or advance internet hype, I just find it difficult to stand by while people attack the EV tax credit in a way that creates a false equivalence to the support the US fossil fuel industry has received for generations.

thanks! I have been drafting a response very similar but it’s a busy morning.

Keep in mind not everyone that buys an EV gets the full credit or possibly none at all depending on their personal tax liability.

also fuel is a commodity subject to the whims of the market. The end user will never see any real benefit to subsidies Provided to the oil companies.

i would also like to see the cumulative subsidies paid to oil companies vs the total tax credit amounts received.

i do think though that we need to move this to another thread if we wish to continue as We have gotten way off of the OPs original question.

 

[CosmicSlate]

thanks! I have been drafting a response very similar but it’s a busy morning.

Keep in mind not everyone that buys an EV gets the full credit or possibly none at all depending on their personal tax liability.

also fuel is a commodity subject to the whims of the market. The end user will never see any real benefit to subsidies Provided to the oil companies.

i would also like to see the cumulative subsidies paid to oil companies vs the total tax credit amounts received.

i do think though that we need to move this to another thread if we wish to continue as We have gotten way off of the OPs original question.

Agree on all points, especially your last one. And, honestly, I am happy to just let this quietly die off because I don't have the energy (pun intended) to keep arguing the details on this -- but, I appreciate all the information and conversation so far.

I think we all agree that our tax dollars need to be spent in a way that supports the common good, (which, I acknowledge, is highly subjective), so anything we can do to help others join in that sentiment, we must do. All hail the common good!

Also, long live Slate!

With luck, it's a viable product and helps advance EV adoption and ownership. It's innovate, creative, and different. I hope it works out as intended.